Why This Billionaire Is Bringing Back the Dire Wolf, Woolly Mammoth & More w/ Ben Lamm & Salim | 165
Colossal Biosciences CEO Ben Lamm joins Peter Diamandis (with Salim Ismail) to unpack the science and whirlwind media week behind Colossal's dire wolf and red wolf de-extinction announcement. Lamm walks through how ancient DNA, closest-living-relative comparison, and multiplex CRISPR-based gene editing let Colossal engineer dire wolf traits into grey wolf cells and clone healthy pups, while addressing backlash over whether they are 'real' dire wolves. The conversation covers Colossal's $10.2B valuation and three-pronged business model (tech spinouts, biodiversity/nature credits, paid government conservation services), its roadmap toward mammoth, thylacine, and dodo revivals, and a 17-person team racing toward full ectogenesis by 2026. Lamm also discusses gene drives for invasive-species control, why true dinosaur DNA doesn't exist, and the bipartisan politics and ethics of de-extinction.
Colossal announced three cloned dire wolf pups and four cloned red wolves, triggering a chaotic press week (New Yorker embargo break, Reddit ban, a cabinet-level comment) that overshadowed the underlying science.
Ancient DNA & genome sequencing pipelineBiotech▶ 20:43
Lamm explains how ancient DNA degrades, how sequencing coverage works, and how Colossal reconstructed a near-complete dire wolf genome from 72,000- and 13,000-year-old remains.
Colossal compares ancient genomes to the closest living relative (grey wolf for dire wolf), edits in the genes driving lost phenotypes, then clones via somatic cell nuclear transfer.
Lamm details knockouts, knockins, single-nucleotide edits, and multiplexing — including a single DNA letter change that confers 5,000x cane toad toxin resistance in marsupials.
Three revenue lines: spun-out tech companies (Form Bio, Breaking), emerging biodiversity/nature credits, and paid government conservation services that beat in-house cost and timelines.
A 17-person Colossal team is targeting the world's first full mammalian ectogenesis (elephant) by end of 2026, aimed at scaling conservation like the northern white rhino.
Longevity genes: p53 in whales and elephantsLongevity▶ 35:57
Extra copies of the p53 tumor-suppressor gene may explain why whales and elephants live so long, informing Colossal's cancer-related patents.
Colossal is actively working on the mammoth, Tasmanian tiger (thylacine), and dodo, with the stellar sea cow on the wish list pending artificial-womb progress.
No dinosaur DNA survives; Lamm says a synthetic-biology ancestral reconstruction of a base archosaur might be possible in 8-10 years for well over $100 million, but it wouldn't be a true dinosaur.
Gene drives could humanely suppress invasive feral cat and cane toad populations in Australia by making offspring sterile instead of killing animals outright.
Quantum computing's future role in synthetic biologyCompute▶ 1:20:29
Lamm sees quantum computing as a future accelerant for simulating edits and predicting off-target effects, but says it's still early and roughly '2 years away' on a rolling basis.
Colossal employs bioethicists, open-sources its conservation technology, and works with administrations on both sides of the aisle, drawing criticism from some in the conservation community.
Predictions made
openBen Lamm: Colossal will achieve the world's first full ectogenesis (artificial womb) mammal birth, starting with an elephant.
“We are on target for the mammoth by the end of 2028.”
Your call:
openBen Lamm: Fully programmable DNA, editable like a Word document, will be achievable.
· due: 2030-2035 (5 years with focused funding, 10 without) · ▶ watch
“I think it's five years. If it doesn't, I think it's 10 still.”
Your call:
openBen Lamm: A synthetic-biology ancestral reconstruction of a base archosaur (proto-dinosaur), though not a true dinosaur, could be engineered.
· due: 2033-2035, cost well over $100 million · ▶ watch
“Probably 10 years from now, eight years from now... I don't think it's a hundred million dollar project, I think it's quite a lot more.”
Your call:
openBen Lamm: Engineering trees that grow in the shape of a house, filter water, and host bioluminescent fungi will be possible, and sooner than people expect.
“That may be a 2090 project, but I think we'll get there.”
Your call:
openBen Lamm: Gene-editing technology will advance to the point of synthesizing entire chromosomes.
· due: unspecified, described as a ways off · ▶ watch
“I think that we will eventually get to the point that we will be able to synthesize full chromosomes.”
Your call:
Numbers that matter
Dire wolf genome built from 72,000-year-old skull DNA and 13,000-year-old tooth DNAUp from only 0.15% prior genome coverage of dire wolves before Colossal's work.
$10.2 billion valuationColossal's current valuation, 4 years after founding in September 2021.
99.5% genetic similarityDire wolves vs. grey wolves, their closest living relative, used as the gene-editing donor species.
8 edits across 7 genes simultaneously, scaled to 20 editsWoolly mouse multiplex editing with 100% delivery/efficiency and zero off-target effects; 15 of the 20 edits are ancient DNA variants.
Only 15 red wolves left in the wildColossal cloned 4 more using a new non-invasive cloning technique.
5,000x toxin resistance from one DNA letter changeA single nucleotide change confers resistance to cane toad neurotoxin in marsupials like dunnarts.
$300M/23 years vs. $70M/<3 yearsCost and timeline for a government to recover an endangered species in-house vs. with Colossal's help.
22-month vs. 13.5-day vs. 30-day gestationElephant, thylacine, and chicken-surrogate gestation periods respectively, which drive de-extinction project timelines.
$50 million foundationColossal-funded foundation for conservation projects, funded largely by tech donors rather than traditional conservation money.
More phages than stars in the universeRoughly a billion quadrillion bacteria-infecting viruses (phages) exist on Earth, a Colossal research area for engineering.
Worth digging into
🕳️ The dire wolf genome bioRxiv preprint
It became the #1 paper on bioRxiv and reportedly crashed the server, but the underlying science got buried under the naming controversy.
🕳️ Biodiversity / nature credits market
Lamm says a new asset class blending carbon and biodiversity credits is emerging, certified by groups like PwC and Lloyd's of London, and could fund conservation at scale.
🕳️ Full mammalian ectogenesis spinout
A 17-person team targeting full artificial-womb gestation by end of 2026 would be a landmark reproductive-biology milestone with implications well beyond conservation.
🕳️ Universal donor egg with matched mitochondria
A cross-species 'universal egg' could dramatically speed up future de-extinction and cloning projects by removing the need for custom embryology per species.
🕳️ Gene drives against invasive species in Australia
A non-lethal population-control tool (sterile offspring) could reshape invasive-species management on islands like Australia and New Zealand.