2025-05-15

Ex-Neuralink Founder: AI Enhanced Bodies Are Nearly Here w/ Max Hodak | EP #171

Live on-stage interview at the 2025 Abundance Summit with Max Hodak, co-founder and former president of Neuralink, now building Science Corp. Max walks through Science's Prima retinal prosthesis, already restoring reading vision to blind patients and headed for European marketing approval, then pivots to the company's next bet: a biohybrid brain-computer interface that grafts hydrogel-embedded stem-cell neurons into the brain instead of inserting rigid electrodes, aiming to scale from hundreds of electrodes (BrainGate, Neuralink) to hundreds of thousands. They cover the hard bandwidth limits of current BCI approaches (roughly 7 bits/sec for Neuralink versus 40 bits/sec for spoken language), the business case for a sustainable BCI company, and Max's speculative long view on brain-to-brain merging, consciousness continuity, and AGI/ASI timelines.

▶ Watch on YouTube

Topics

Prima retinal prosthesis Biotech ▶ 1:46

Science Corp's implant restores reading vision to patients with macular degeneration and retinitis pigmentosa via a solar-cell chip in the retina and laser-projector glasses; 38-patient European trial completed, EU marketing submission imminent.

BCI business model and funding sustainability Economy ▶ 5:13

Max argues the BCI field needs at least one company generating $100M+/year to avoid a funding winter, and that vertical integration into manufacturing is essential to move fast.

Bandwidth limits of current BCI approaches Biotech ▶ 8:55

Max surveys existing neural-interface modalities (stent electrodes, penetrating wires like Neuralink/BrainGate, optogenetics, ultrasound) and their fundamental physics and scaling limits.

Bits-per-second framing of human cognition Biotech ▶ 11:44

Spoken language carries about 40 bits/second across all human languages, human attention processes about 10 bits/second, and current penetrating BCIs achieve only 5-7 bits/second.

Science's biohybrid neural interface Biotech ▶ 14:00

Instead of placing electronics in brain tissue, Science grafts a hydrogel of engineered stem-cell-derived neurons that grow their own axons and dendrites into the brain, enabling optical stimulation and electrical recording without destroying host tissue.

Scaling electrode count Biotech ▶ 16:13

BrainGate places about 100 electrodes and Neuralink about 1,000; Max says the biohybrid graft approach could reach 100,000 electrodes and a billion synapses by growing into cortex rather than being inserted.

Cell engineering convergence enabling the device Biotech ▶ 19:42

Hypoimmunogenic stem cells, CRISPR editing, small-molecule kill switches, and materials like silicon carbide converge to let heavily edited graft cells hide from the immune system and be safely implanted.

Smartphone dividend for BCI hardware Economy ▶ 20:38

The BCI field rides on over $100B of consumer-electronics investment in smartphone and wearable components, since the field itself is too small to fund that infrastructure alone.

Primate and human trial timeline Biotech ▶ 21:01

Science is training primates now, expects first primate engraftments within a couple months, and now expects first human implants (for stroke) much sooner than the four-to-five-year timeline Max previously estimated.

Brain-to-brain merging and consciousness continuity Biotech ▶ 22:34

Max discusses split-brain patients and the Hogan twins (conjoined with shared neural connections) as natural proof that merged or partially shared consciousness is possible, and frames brain-to-brain links as a longevity technology via continuity of experience.

AGI/ASI timeline and the case for merging with AI AI ▶ 24:00

Max says AGI and ASI are definitely happening within his personal event horizon of 2030-2035, and that merging with AI may be necessary to retain human agency and advantage as these systems become more capable.

Predictions made

open Max Hodak: Science will submit Prima for EU marketing approval within the next month and hopes to have it on the market in the EU, and possibly the US, by early next year.

· due: 2026 · ▶ watch

“we're planning to submit for marketing approval in Europe in the next month”

Your call:

open Max Hodak: Science will perform its first primate engraftments of the biohybrid BCI device within a couple of months.

· due: 2025 · ▶ watch

“we're hoping to do the first primate engraftments in a in a few months”

Your call:

open Max Hodak: The first human recipients of Science's neural implant, almost certainly stroke patients, will arrive much sooner than the four-to-five-year timeline Max previously estimated, possibly via a new collaboration.

· due: unspecified · ▶ watch

“I actually think this is now going to be much faster”

Your call:

open Max Hodak: Brain-to-brain merging with phenomenal binding across the interface will be possible within the next decade.

· due: 2035 · ▶ watch

“I think will be possible on the on the time scale of the next decade”

Your call:

open Max Hodak: Whether merged minds produce a single unified conscious experience or retain multiple attentional windows will be resolved within the next five years, pending missing physics.

· due: 2030 · ▶ watch

“I'm increasingly confident we're going to get this in the next 5 years”

Your call:

open Max Hodak: AGI and ASI are definitely happening, within an event horizon Max places between 2030 and 2035.

· due: 2035 · ▶ watch

“AGI and ASI are definitely happening”

Your call:

open Peter Diamandis: Citing Ray Kurzweil's own forecast, high-bandwidth BCI will arrive by the early 2030s.

· due: 2033 · ▶ watch

“one of his predictions was high bandwidth BCI by the early 2030s like 2033”

Your call:

Numbers that matter

38 patients completed Science's European Prima clinical trial; about 50 people worldwide have received the implant so far First time blind patients with macular degeneration or retinitis pigmentosa have been able to read again.
Prima's addressable market is many billions of dollars a year; reimbursement around $200,000/patient in the US (Medicare) and $150,000/patient in Europe Total eligible population is roughly 250,000 patients; reaching 2,000-3,000 patients/year would be a half-billion-to-multi-billion-dollar business.
Spoken language conveys about 40 bits per second Consistent across human languages regardless of speaking speed.
Human attention processes the world at about 10 bits per second An evolved cognitive bottleneck on perception and memory.
Neuralink's published BCI bandwidth is about 7 bits per second Compared against 40 bits/sec for speech and 10 bits/sec for attention.
A single penetrating electrode placement destroys about 50,000 cortical cells to record from roughly 500 neurons Illustrates why wire-electrode BCIs can't scale to millions of cells.
BrainGate uses about 100 electrodes, Neuralink about 1,000; Science's graft approach targets 100,000 electrodes and a billion synapses Electrode count comparison across BCI companies/approaches.
Apple, Samsung, and other consumer electronics makers have invested over $100 billion into the smartphone/wearable tech stack BCI companies rely on The 'smartphone dividend' that subsidizes BCI hardware development.
Ray Kurzweil's predictions have about an 86% accuracy rate per Wikipedia's tally, per Peter Diamandis Cited as context for trusting Kurzweil's BCI timeline forecast.

Worth digging into

🕳️ Science Corp's biohybrid graft BCI

A fundamentally different approach to brain-computer interfaces that avoids tissue destruction and could scale electrode count by orders of magnitude over Neuralink/BrainGate.

🕳️ Split-brain and conjoined-twin consciousness research

Max cites corpus callosotomy patients and the Hogan twins as natural proof that partially merged consciousness is biologically possible, directly informing his brain-to-brain merging thesis.

🕳️ Bits-per-second theory of human cognition

The 10 bits/sec attention bottleneck and 40 bits/sec language constant are specific, checkable claims from information-theory-of-cognition research that underlie Max's whole BCI design philosophy.

🕳️ Prima's regulatory and reimbursement path

A near-term, revenue-generating medical device with specific EU/FDA timelines and Medicare reimbursement economics worth tracking against Max's stated predictions.

🕳️ BCI funding sustainability and the 'smartphone dividend'

Max's claim that the field needs a $100M+/year company to avoid a funding winter is a checkable industry-health thesis distinct from any single company's technology.